DF Unplugged: Mark Muncy

Jun 26

[Intro]
Perry Carpenter:
Hey, there! I'm Perry Carpenter, one of the hosts of the Digital Folklore Podcast. And welcome to our third installment of Digital Folklore Unplugged. These unplugged episodes are all about stripping away all of the fancy production elements and bells and whistles that we put in our normal episodes, so that we can give you access to the raw or only slightly edited interviews with our folklore experts. On today's episode, my co-host Mason and I sit down with Mark Muncy.
Mark Muncy:
I'm Mark Muncy.
Perry Carpenter:
Mark is the author of a series of books focused around urban legends and folklore in the Florida area. He's the author of Eerie Florida, Eerie Appalachia, Creepy Florida, and Freaky Florida. There's definitely a Florida influence there. He also hosts a podcast called Eerie Travels. It's a weekly show where he and his co-host, Erika Lance, explore monsters, legends, history, and mysteries. And in each episode, they invite you to explore destinations for your own Eerie Travels.
And just remember, if you're one of our Patreon supporters, you get access to these interviews a few days before their general release.
Okay, let's get unplugged.

[Cut to Main Interview]
Mark Muncy:
I'm Mark Muncy. I am the author of the bestselling, Eerie Florida book series from History Press. I also have written recently Eerie Appalachia, also on its way to the bestseller list, hopefully. But I've been on numerous TV shows, documentaries, mostly famous for about a minute and 30 seconds, of ancient aliens, and about three and a half minutes of Finding Bigfoot.
But you can find me on road trips of Ripley's, Expedition X and a bunch of other shows, most famously, the Curse of Robert the Doll, on Discovery Channel, Shocktober Documentary this fall. And more to come, but those pesky NDAs, you got to love those.
Mason Amadeus:
Tell us how you got into this. What drew you to it and how did you develop the knowledge base that made you an expert enough to where you would be providing input to all these things?
Mark Muncy:
It started long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away because I fell in love with Star Wars. No, but that was about the same time period. I was 6 or 7 years old. My family grew up in the Midwest, Ohio. But our home was Kentucky. And so, we would go to this little rural farm on the West Virginia, Kentucky, Ohio border, right at that tri-state corner. And we had a farm there, and grew up there, going there weekends and learning about the local lore, and ghost stories, and the local monster, which was the dumbest thing ever.
It was this legendary beast with the head of a man, the body of a cow, or a big cat, and a wooden leg. And because nobody can have nice things, we called it the Bench-Leg. The Bench-Leg of Goble Ridge. I know it sounds like something out of South Park, right?
Mason Amadeus:
The Bench-Leg?
Mark Muncy:
The Bench-Leg of Goble Ridge. And he would jump from tree to tree. So, this cow thing would jump from tree to tree.
Perry Carpenter:
With a cow body.
Mason Amadeus:
Wow.
Mark Muncy:
And then, if you were a bad person, it would knock you off your horse with its wooden leg, which my dad lovingly called its whoop ass stick, which would hit you. And now, being a kid growing up, Star Wars is my life. I loved going out there because it was dark sky territory.
So, I'd go out there to watch the skies. I was looking for close encounters. I was looking for UFOs, and hearing ghost stories was always fun, but I was like, "Man, stupid creature, this Bench-Leg. " But as I grew up, every single family member had some story of when they saw the thing, or something weird had happened with it.
And my dad talked about one time where he was, there were extra cattle on the farm, when it was still a working farm. And he went around one side of a bush and my uncle went around the other side of the bush, and then it disappeared on them. And so, they... Oh, that was their bench leg encounter. Nothing really scary, but just odd.
And then, one day I'm out in the woods, late at night, the family is up at the big trailer, and I'm down looking for stars. And something unusual happened, and I don't know how to explain it, just one of the horses, in the field, ran by. Something spooked it, and then the other horse ran by and I'm like, "Okay, so that's both horses," maybe a bear or a dog or something that I wasn't expecting. And then, I hear more hoofs and more noise, and I'm like, "What is going on? There's nobody else here."
And I'm realizing I have a BB gun that is not going to do me much good if it's a bear. And I saw this strange thing, I'm not going to say it had a wooden leg, but it had a weird head and it ran through the woods and glowy. I don't know what I saw, I can't explain it, but I had a story to tell and that drew me in. And, of course, from there led to in search of, and all the books that I could grab at every school library in Scholastic Book Fair on Bermuda Triangle, ghost, monsters.
And that was the lifelong fascination. And then, was a bit of a writer in the '80s, mostly science fiction, fantasy and a little bit of horror just because, and then became a dad and put away childish things. But I still love that stuff, still collected it. And then, after a few years I realized, "Hey, I can be a kid."
Perry Carpenter:
Yeah.
Mark Muncy:
And so, we started running around haunted house in Florida because I couldn't afford to take my family to horror nights or Howl-O-Scream or anything. So, we built our own in my backyard. But the twist was, we based it on Local Lorraine Legend.
So, instead of having a werewolf jump out at you, we had the skunk ape jump out at you. And we loved that stuff and we'd pushed those stories on our website to grow them. But as people were going through the haunted house, they didn't care. It was just some monster jumped out at them, scared them, but there were fans who really liked the Lorraine. It was me writing my stories again.
And then, we put a little email box, "Hey, got a creepy story? Let me know. I want to put it in the haunted house." Now, to give you timeline, this was an AOL website or a GeoCities website with an AOL address, so that'll give you the timeline of internet here. So, early '90s, mid '90s. And from there it blew up. We were doing that for almost two decades, and it just kept getting bigger and bigger. We had 10,000 people a weekend going through my backyard.
Mason Amadeus:
Wow.
Perry Carpenter:
Wow.
Mark Muncy:
So, the City of St. Pete finally shut us down. We were a little too successful and it was all for charity, but we understood. But then, I had all those stories and I'm like, "What I do with them?" And now, my kids are grown and I can start publishing these. And that's what led to Eerie Florida.
And then, we went to every location, we legend tripped. We went to absolutely every location on our list of things because we want to make sure they were still there. A lot of them have been bulldozed. A lot of them were private property and you couldn't go in. So, I was like, "I'm going to write about that." And when that hit the bestseller list, suddenly the publisher's like, "Oh, remember you said you had other stories?" We're like, "Oh, yeah, we gotcha." So...
Perry Carpenter:
Nice.
Mark Muncy:
And that's how it all began, and that's where it's still going, which is crazy.
Mason Amadeus:
So, this all started with an encounter with the Bench-Leg? Was it Bench-Leg?
Mark Muncy:
The Bench-Leg of Goble Ridge.
Mason Amadeus:
The Bench-Leg of Goble Ridge in your own backyard.
Mark Muncy:
In our own backyard in Kentucky, yup, and it was just a strange thing. And like I said, I don't like to say it was a cryptid. I don't like to say it was a ghost. It was something I don't understand. And those are words I try to avoid in my books. Shirley Jackson, I think did it best where she called it preternatural stuff, we don't understand yet.
So, stuff we, might someday. And for a long time, people didn't understand plate tectonics. Little Jimmy said, "Hey, look, Africa misses with South America." And they're like, "Oh, that's funny, Jimmy." But then, later on we figured it out. Oh, they were together and we shifted. This is the same thing. At some point, we're going to understand this stuff, we just don't yet.
Perry Carpenter:
So, with, and not to get overly stuck on Bench-Leg, but I got questions about Bench-Leg. First of all, does Bench-Leg walk on two legs or is it walk on four legs?
Mark Muncy:
It is a four-legged creature. The legend was that it was a spirit of vengeance and looked for evil people. So, after I'd done a few Florida books, we'll go straight to Bench-Leg here, because I love him. He's my family pet. So, we need to know.
Perry Carpenter:
Yeah. Oh, and is there an utter?
Mason Amadeus:
We need to know.
Mark Muncy:
No utter.
Mason Amadeus:
Okay.
Mark Muncy:
No utter. More like, what I saw looked like a panther, which are not common in Kentucky and not around in Kentucky. Maybe a Bobcat, but this was not a Bobcat. And the head had some strange, glowing about it. But what we did was, as I dig into these legends and these histories, I love finding out where they really come from. It's like, oh, you hear the legend of Mini Lights in St. Petersburg. Digging into that, you find out the real story is so much scarier. We'll get into that in a minute.
But the Bench-Leg, I found the origin story, which I had never known, and it was a man walking along that ridge in the late 1700s, early 1800s, so early days of Kentucky. And he was a panhandler, and he would fix 10. He was like a tinker, fix your pans, fix your plates, sell stuff, and trade you stuff. A group of bandits decided to rob him because they figured he'd have some money, and he had his little oxcart and they murdered him, and he fought back with a big stick.
And then, to hide the crime, they killed his cow and buried him under the cow. And so, thus, this spirit of vengeance with the mix of the cow, the wooden stick and the man's head, is that the origin story of this? It's definitely the comic book version. If I was going to write one or the Hollywood movie version.
Perry Carpenter:
Yeah.
Mason Amadeus:
Yeah, that's super interesting.
Mark Muncy:
And that's what we find a lot of these folk tales is like, "Don't go down that road. There's bad thing happened there. Don't go into that creepy old building. Somebody was murdered there, may be haunted." It was protect us from the dark. And that's what this story was, is protect us from the dark. But people are seeing things, people are experiencing things.
I have family members who have never lied about a thing in their life. We'll talk about the Bench-Leg. And then, there's the other side of the family that it is, "There is no such thing as ghosts. There's no such thing as aliens. The Bible and everything. And if you don't believe that, you're..." But they will talk about the Bench-Leg and the time they saw it or something like that.
Mason Amadeus:
Right.
Mark Muncy:
Right? Yeah.
Mason Amadeus:
I'm curious on the legend tripping aspect of it, especially having collected all of these local stories. And then, to go to those places and see them. I'm curious about legend tripping in general, because it's something I've never done. I went once to the Hoosac Tunnel in Mass, but that's not a place you're technically supposed to be.
Mark Muncy:
Yeah.
Mason Amadeus:
Which I imagine that might be the case. But what was the value? Because you went with all of these stories you had collected. And so, you had a lot more background than just a teenager being like, "I hear this is scary, I want to go see it."
Mark Muncy:
Yeah, and like I said, when I first started doing this, it was still early days. Creepy pasta was still early days and all that. But what started it all for us was the devil's chair in Cassadaga, which is the place you're supposed to go visit. Cassadaga is an amazing town, anyway, in Florida. There's a reason Tom Petty wrote a song about it. It's where the Twilight Zone meets Mayberry. It's crazy. The town was founded by psychics. This guy was drawn there by his spirit guide who told him to build this town and invite only psychics there. And he did, and he built this community.
And people there now, it actually has more psychics and witches per capita than Salem in this little town in Florida. But that's because there's only 100 people in the town. But there's this legendary chair there in the cemetery, and if you go there and sit at this chair at midnight, the devil will himself will come for you. And then, if you ask anybody in Cassadaga about it, for the longest time, Cassadaga is like, "Nope, no cemetery in Cassadaga. There is no devil's chair. What are you talking about?"
And they were distancing themselves from that dark side of history there. There's no ghosts in Cassadaga. There's no anything like that in Cassadaga. They were trying to get rid of all that. And then, you start researching it. And you're like, "But everybody talks about it." "Yeah, it's not in Cassadaga. It's in Lake Helen, right next to Cassadaga, and it's called the Cassadaga Lake Helen Cemetery." That's how they get away with it.
But the legend is just so specific, sit in the chair at midnight. And then, you go there and there's like five chairs, and they're all morning chairs, built out of brick. And now, if you do go there at midnight, you will be visited by a dark presence. The dark presence is called the police because it is private property and it is closed after sunset. So, because so many people go there to do this legend tripping.
So, the legend morphs in around the late 1980s, thanks to the great Charlie Carlson, or the late great Charlie Carlson who wrote Weird Florida, one of my mentors and role models, the Master of Weird himself. And he wrote about the devil's chair. And so, that blew up Cassadaga and everybody coming for that. And so, they were even more, it doesn't exist, get away from us. But the legend changed because they started fencing off the cemetery and the sheriff actually moved right next door to the cemetery. So, he's keeping an eye on it.
Mason Amadeus:
Oh, no.
Mark Muncy:
But the legend became then if you left a beer on the chair, in the morning, the beer would be drunk and you'd be granted a wish from the devil.
Perry Carpenter:
Oh, nice.
Mason Amadeus:
I'm sure the sheriff liked the free beer, anyway.
Mark Muncy:
And that's 100%.
Perry Carpenter:
Right.
Mark Muncy:
Yeah, I guarantee you, he had something to do with that version of the legend. But you do the research on it and you find out, okay, the devil didn't build the chair, it's a morning chair. They were common in the 1800s, especially in Florida because it's hot. And we want to have a chair to go visit your family, and you build this little brick chair.
And then, the other thing people always say about it is, "On the hottest days of the year in Florida, you can sit on that chair and it'll still be cool to the touch. There's a reason we build chimneys out of brick. They dissipate heat." So, you legend trip this, yes, you can go leave a beer, whatever, just be kind knowing it is a family plot. The family is still around. This is not some abandoned cemetery. Be respectful for those around. So, that's what I say.
Mason Amadeus:
What do you think the appeal is in it like, what is the thing that would draw you to do it? Is it to participate in the legends or do you find that you learn more from actually being there? Or what is the call?
Mark Muncy:
I think the call is to find out if there's something beyond. If there is that next thing is, to find out what we don't understand, are there ghosts? Are there Bigfoot? Are there sea monsters? Are there UFOs? Some of this stuff, like I said, when I was growing up in the '70s, this was Leonard Nimoy was the only guy who talked about this. And we might get Carl Sagan to give a passing thing about it.
Perry Carpenter:
Right.
Mark Muncy:
But now, we've got congressional hearings on UAPs and every channel, Discovery Channel, history channel, travel channel, they don't show history, travel or discovery. They show ghost adventures and UFO, ancient aliens. And I'm the guy who's on a bunch of them. And even I go, "Okay, hang on, that's out of context. I edit it. I did a two-hour interview with some German talk show and you edited that to a minute and 30 seconds." So, just know that those are TV gang, that's all you got to know. Those are entertainment. So...
Perry Carpenter:
Yeah. So, I'm wondering if with legend tripping, there's different motivations for different age groups. If you're 13 to maybe 17 and you go, or even a little bit older than that legend tripping, it might be because you see it as a rite of passage and you're wanting to show yourself as fearless in front of your friends or to go with a date and be in a scary situation and have all the endorphins and everything else that go with that.
But as you get a little bit older, you're asking those bigger questions that you're asking with that is like, is there something that is connected to this that is bigger than the world that we typically think about? Or is there something interesting about history that I can learn about this that's going to tell us a little bit more about ourselves as well? Do you see those breakups or do you talk to those different age groups and hear their motivations?
Mark Muncy:
A 100%. Once the books hit, I started getting more and more emails about, "Have you been to this place? Do you know anything about this place? Because I have a story about this place and I saw something weird here." And that's my big thing is, "Please, please, please, if you see something, say something, document it, tell somebody." Because that's how we build these databases. That's how we find, okay, you saw something, you really did see something, or oh, that was 10 states saw the same fireball. It was a meteor. And we followed the trail and we figured out where it landed. But that's still cool. How many people saw that fireball?
But that's how we also prove, crazy Uncle Joe, who saw Bigfoot when he was in the 1960s, oh, 16 people saw it in the same area. It may have been a guy in a suit, but we got 16 other witnesses, so crazy Uncle Joe wasn't so crazy. And then, how do we find these ghosts? How do we find their stories? And with me, with the new book, it was Appalachia, so it was going into these hollers and getting these monsters like the Bench-Leg. I wanted more Bench-Legs. I knew there were more out there. Jersey devils that hadn't popped. Mothmans that hadn't popped. And I wanted those stories.
And the meemaws and peepaws are dying off. So, this is folklore that we are losing and an alarming rate. And not all of it it's getting put into creepypasta and a CP and all that. And it's a shame because that would be a good repository for it. But I like to think that museums and other things would be good too. So...
Perry Carpenter:
More of our interview with Mark Muncy after this. Welcome back. There's a tri-legged stool of cybersecurity, which is you're thinking about confidentiality, integrity, and availability of information. When we're talking about folklore, the confidentiality piece isn't really needed, but you do think about integrity, the information, is it being changed? Is it being malformed or is it being preserved well? And then, availability of the information, have we lost this forever? Or are we able to capture it and archive it and make sure that it's there for future generations.
I'm wondering if you've had experiences where there's a little bit of a taste of a legend or something that you wanted to look at. And as you started to untangle it, you've seen how it's changed or people have intentionally changed that to maybe create a new legend out of an old one or maybe try to delete a legend because they thought it was shameful for their family or something. Have you run across those weird permutations?
Mark Muncy:
Oh, quite a bit. Probably, one of the most famous that we came across in the early days was there's a monster in Tampa that is on a Trestle bridge, and it's just called the Tampa Trestle Monster. For some reason it was called the Nebraska Avenue Trestle Monster, even though it's not anywhere on Nebraska Avenue.
But this creature was basically, it's right near a school, and this bridge goes over the Hillsborough River, and then goes over this school and it's a Trestle Bridge. It's a train bridge, and you're not supposed to go on it because trains go on it. And kids found that they could cut across that bridge and save 10 minutes from having to walk out to the road back across, and then back across.
So, they would go across this road. But the story was that there was this body that you would see out on the bridge and it looked like a guy in a suit. And he would call for help, "Help, help, help." And then, you would get out on the bridge to go help him, and suddenly it would rise up like a sea spider using the body like an Anglerfish would use it. And you were either going to get eaten by this creature or you could jump into the water and save yourself maybe, but you might die.
So, now this is not the nicest area of Tampa. There is a lot of missing people and a lot of kids' suicide off that bridge. A couple of kids have been hit by the train, so not a pleasant experience. But what happens is, creepypasta comes out. And now, we had used this monster in our haunted house that we had based on local legends, a Hellview Cemetery.
So, one of our monsters was the Tampa Trestle Monster, and it was a guy in a suit with creepy spider legs. And one day, this kid comes up to me and goes, "I'm so glad you guys put Slender Man in your house." And I'm like, "Who?" I had never heard of Slender Man. This is before he popped. And before creepypasta, I didn't even hear about creepypasta.
And then, they were talking about another ghost in our haunt that was another one that was on there. And what we found out was our website, our old GeoCities website, people were copying and pasting some of our stories onto creepypasta.
Perry Carpenter:
Oh, nice.
Mark Muncy:
And I think it was Reddit, No Sleep, was big at that time. That was the one I found him first. But then, you go into the creepypasta website and you look up Slender Man and early days, he is a Photoshop contest monster. He is just literally a guy in a suit. But then, suddenly, there's all these entries because it's Wikipedia style, and all the edits came from Tampa Bay, and they were kids from that school, or possibly from people who visited our haunted house who knew the legend and edited it into that.
So, suddenly, Slender Man has tentacles or spider legs depending on the version. And so, and instead of, oh, it happened in the Pacific Northwest. It happened right here, that thing. And we get that a lot with legends too.
Mason Amadeus:
That is interesting.
Mark Muncy:
When you do chase a legend, you'll be like, "Oh, this takes place here." And you find out, "Oh, that's just a Boy Scout Camp." So, it took place somewhere near there, but that's where they always tell the story.
Perry Carpenter:
Right.
Mason Amadeus:
So, that little note about Slender Man is interesting. So, you actually found edits, a lot of edits from Tampa specifically that began to add tentacles to the physicality of Slender Man.
Mark Muncy:
And then, suddenly, all his Photoshops and artist drawings have tentacles and smoke legs and depending on the thing. And you can literally clock it to Tampa entries, so which was amazing in those days.
Perry Carpenter:
Interesting. Yeah, because I think a lot of people clock it back to the Marble Hornets YouTube series, but maybe they...
Mark Muncy:
Which were Tampa guys.
Mason Amadeus:
Oh, they were Tampa Guys. Those people from Tampa?
Mark Muncy:
They were Tampa, Orlando, yup.
Mason Amadeus:
You're kidding me.
Mark Muncy:
Nope.
Mason Amadeus:
That's funny. So, the Trestle Bridge Monster informed if not directly, because obviously, the lore of it is completely different, but the appearance and physicality...
Mark Muncy:
Yeah, Marble Hornets did their own thing with it, but I'm sure they heard it too, from somebody in the area. So, it predates them by a little bit. So...
Perry Carpenter:
I had assumed that it was more of a lovecraftian type of influence.
Mark Muncy:
Right. That's what they went for.
Perry Carpenter:
Yeah, that's cool.
Mark Muncy:
They were really good filmmakers. That's what really built that lore up. So, they don't get enough credit for that at all. So...
Mason Amadeus:
But that lovecraftian influence could also easily have bled into the Trestle Monster too, right? But that's a fair reason.
Perry Carpenter:
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a very incestuous type of thing with all that is.
Mark Muncy:
Yeah, it goes back to a potential train crash during when the Tampa electric dam was sabotaged and there was flooding all over South Tampa in the 1920s, late 1920s. And that was the same thing, the Sulfur Springs Tower was with what you called Suicide Tower because that same flooding wiped out Mave's Arcade, the businesses there and the height of the Great Depression, a lot of guys jumped to their death off that tower. So...
Perry Carpenter:
Wow.
Mason Amadeus:
Wow.
Mark Muncy:
Tampa Triangle, baby.
Mason Amadeus:
Yeah, right. So, the initial gathering of all the stories for your haunted house was just from local people submitting them?
Mark Muncy:
Yeah, and ones I discover on my own.
Mason Amadeus:
That's going to be my follow-up, was like, yeah, because local legends particularly are, I feel like interesting to uncover. How do you usually look for them? And do you feel like, have you come anywhere close to exhausting local Florida ones? Or do you just niche down and down and down into smaller and smaller areas?
Mark Muncy:
Oh, no, it's not even smaller and smaller. Sometimes, it's bigger and bigger. It's like, "Oh, how did I miss this one?" And stuff like that. So, I think the one that when we figured out what we were going to do for Eerie Florida was, because at first, we were just going to publish the stories like we had spooked them up for the website for Hellview. They were the Stephen King versions. It would be, "All right, this is how it happened, but let's make it creepier. We'll turn Madam Moore, this infamous bordello owner from Ybor City into a vampire, and we'll make it from dust until dawn versus the rough writers. Come on.
When Teddy Roosevelt orders your bordello burned down, how do you not turn that into from dust until dawn? The problem is, now some of that is if you go to research Madam Ore and the Ore House, you find our stuff from our old haunted house. You can't find the original historical stuff because our stuff blew up. And that is just lost to history.
Mason Amadeus:
Overshadowed it.
Mark Muncy:
Yeah, but one of the legends we had always done was there was one called Mini Lights, and it was in Tampa Bay. And if you said Mini Lights three times, these strange little lights would come and chase you. Okay, that's dumb legend. No, it doesn't make much sense. But yeah, always in threes, you got to mock the Trinity. That's how these things work. But...
Mason Amadeus:
It sounds like will-o'-the-wisp kind of thing.
Mark Muncy:
Exactly. Like will-o'-the-wisp. They would chase you and if they touched you, it would send your flesh, but not do anything terrible. But so, I remember building, because I was big into Halloween, building props and stuff before I got back into... The legends were just how the means to the end.
So, I made a little gyroscope thing with three little LED lights that would chase you, that would just blend around the background. I knew nobody know what the hell it was. But for me, it was important. And some people would go, "Oh, I love you put Mini Lights in." I was like, "Yeah, great." But then, as we were doing Eerie Florida, suddenly, I'm like, "All right, now I need to get behind the legends. I need to find out the history behind this."
And I started asking people, and on the north side of town, people would be like, "Oh, you say it three times, these little lights will chase you." But on the south side of town, it turned into a completely different version of the legend. And first off, it was very much, "Don't go messing with Mini Lights. Mini Lights will get you." And then, you find out, "Oh, her name is not Mini Lights. It's mini lightning. And she's the voodoo queen of St. Petersburg." And it's like, "What?"
Perry Carpenter:
Oh, nice.
Mark Muncy:
And she summons the lightning, and that's why we have so much thunderstorms. And she hates Marie Laveau in New Orleans. So, she sends all the hurricanes to New Orleans. That's why they steer away from Tampa Bay. And it's like, one of the many legends of why storms dodge Tampa Bay. But it was cool. And I'm like, "All right, that's neat." But then, there was a dark side to it, but if you piss her off, she will send her Gator Boys to steal your children.
So, she has little gator men that will come out and steal your children. They'll come out of the sewer, alligators in the sewers, and they'll come out. And so, now it's this other, what a layered story.
Perry Carpenter:
Yeah.
Mark Muncy:
And where does that come from? So, we start digging and digging as we did. And I thought Mini Lights sounds an awful light like Mennonite. And there was a strong Mennonite community, particularly in Gibsonton across the bay, which became the circus town where all the freak show folks all just summered and everything for Ringling for their south. And I'm like, "Maybe."
And I read about a Mennonite boarding house that burned down that had circus folk in it. Maybe, they had alligator skin or something. Maybe, that's where this legend comes from. And it just migrated across the bay, we were thinking. But then, really couldn't figure it out. And we sadly had a due date. So, we went to press with the various versions saying, "Hey, if anybody has an idea, we'd love to hear it." And then, we were working on our next book, because like I said, they did the bestseller. And suddenly, the publisher's like, "All right, bring me more, bring me more."
Perry Carpenter:
More.
Mark Muncy:
And I was in the St. Pete Museum of History. I was in their archives, and I was looking up something else on a completely different story, and the answer literally fell in my lap on Mini Lights. I opened a book, I was looking for other photos, and this fan fell out into my lap. And it was like one of those fans you hold to cool yourself off at a tourist attraction in the 1930s, and you would cool yourself off holding this fan.
And the fan was for an alligator farm in St. Petersburg that is no longer there because alligator farms were big tourist attractions in Florida, early days. And St. Pete had one. And one of the things on it was two small African-American children being chased by alligators, and it said, "Gator bait."
Perry Carpenter:
Wow.
Mark Muncy:
And then, it all fell into place.
Perry Carpenter:
Wow.
Mark Muncy:
The real history is so much darker. This alligator farm would kidnap children from the south side and put them into entertain tourists to be chased by alligators.
Mason Amadeus:
So, they would actually do that, really? Wow.
Mark Muncy:
They actually did that. And so...
Perry Carpenter:
So, it wasn't just a completely racist bit of propaganda.
Mark Muncy:
No.
Perry Carpenter:
But it was an actual, yup. Wow.
Mason Amadeus:
Wow.
Mark Muncy:
They actually did it. So, beware of Mini Lights, the Gator Boys will steal your children. It's beware of the men with lights, the Gator Boys, they'll steal your children.
Perry Carpenter:
Oh, my God.
Mark Muncy:
So, the alligator farm would go out at night and steal kids. It really happened.
Perry Carpenter:
That is horrible.
Mason Amadeus:
Yeah, that is gutting. And also, wild how it changed.
Perry Carpenter:
Yeah.
Mark Muncy:
Yup. And then, so 1930s, this was still going on, and until they shut down sometime in the early '40s. So, and it's terrible. And sometimes, like I said, sometimes these legends, the truth is so much worse than a voodoo queen with alligator people.
Perry Carpenter:
Right.
Mark Muncy:
That was so terrible. And now, the City of St. Pete Museum of History has a display of that because we discovered it.
Perry Carpenter:
Wow.
Mark Muncy:
And again, if I hadn't been looking through the right thing... And so, if I've done nothing else on this world, that was one of those wonderful things that we discovered and brought to light. And it's terrible. But...
Mason Amadeus:
But an important piece of history and connecting that to that local legend. And also, what a coincidence that that fan happened to be in whatever that freaking book was and fell into your life.
Mark Muncy:
Yup, that book on Houses in South Florida that I was looking for another haunted house history and discovered this.
Perry Carpenter:
Wow.
Mark Muncy:
So, it's crazy.
Perry Carpenter:
That is amazing.
Mason Amadeus:
That is.
Mark Muncy:
And we wonder how many more are out there like that, little things like that that somebody just needs to connect the dots on. And if I hadn't been looking into this legend at all, I never even thought about it. I would've just seen that and gone, "Oh, that's creepy and terrible." And cataloged it and thrown it in an archive. But...
Mason Amadeus:
It's really interesting because there's a lot of descriptions of folklore that talk about a game of telephone across the ages.
Mark Muncy:
Yup, 100%.
Mason Amadeus:
And that one's very, very literally that.
Mark Muncy:
Yup, 100%.
Perry Carpenter:
And also, folklore creating an interesting varnish over or covering over darker truths about our nature. And that's definitely there. I mean, it is looking at one of the darkest parts of history for that region, and then turning it into something that potentially becomes a warning for future generations. But this much broader than that.
Mason Amadeus:
It's cloaking harm with whimsy, yeah.
Mark Muncy:
Yup, and it goes back to folklore. Don't go in the dark forest. There's wolves. Little Red Riding Hood. It's the same stuff.
Mason Amadeus:
Wow.
Mark Muncy:
This is a modern version of that. And for every one of those, then there's the ones that don't make sense, and the ones that are so insane that you're just like, "Okay, what the hell is this?" And then, like I said, I do all these events. I do all these appearances, book signings and stuff, and then people come up to me and go, "Hey, I heard on this show or X show, and I've got a story for you. I know you're not going to believe it." And I'm like, "No, totally, hit me. I want to know this." And, "I know it sounds crazy." "No, it's fine. Tell me."
And that's what I keep trying to tell everybody. Please, please, tell your local organizations, reach out to your ghost hunting teams, reach out to your Bigfoot hunting teams, reach out to your UFO teams, or go to MUFON, go to BFRO, the Bigfoot Reporting Organization. All these other sites are out there for a reason. We want this stuff documented. Or reach out to your favorite local folklore author, and give him the story because he needs to write more books. So, it works out.
Mason Amadeus:
Keep these legends alive.
Perry Carpenter:
Yup, yeah, I was going to ask you, do you consider yourself a folklorist or a paranormal researcher, or do you see distinctions in these different categories that maybe other people might put distinctions in?
Mason Amadeus:
Or like an archivist of some kind?
Perry Carpenter:
Yeah, an archivist. How do you describe yourself?
Mark Muncy:
I used to describe myself as a paranormal journalist because I was not going on ghost hunts. I was not going on Bigfoot hunts as an investigator. But I would go with Bigfoot hunting teams on investigations. I would go with paranormal teams on ghost investigations. I would go with UFOs on UFO spotting trips, and I would go with legend trippers as they would go and try to reenact some legendary curse for Bloody Bucket Bridge or whatever. Let's bring the ghost back.
So, I would go with them and document their stories. That's what I originally started as. But then, as that morphed into the more research part and the more archiving part, especially now with Eerie Appalachia, where it was more like, I want to keep these stories alive for generations.
So, I still want to try to dig and find the history behind them and find the story that started it all. But, and it's cool if I can narrow down a thing, and even better if it's got some folklore history or even more ancient. We did a lot on, for the new book, we did a lot with native cultures because we were looking into an incident in Ohio called the Crosswick serpent, which is this thing, it's well documented in some newspapers, this giant snake with legs.
They don't say dinosaur, they don't say lizard. They say snake with legs. And it grabbed a small child and ran up a tree, and the whole town comes out to fight it and knocks the tree down, and it runs into a cave, and then they seal the cave. It's never seen again. But the descriptions are very similar to the Native American underwater panther or Mishipeshu, which is a native legend.
Perry Carpenter:
Yeah.
Mark Muncy:
But you're not really, you can't say native legend because it's just their belief. It's their way of life. It's not folklore, it's not myth. You've got the thunderbirds in the sky, you've got Mishipeshu in the water, and you've got the great serpent in the underworld. And that's just the way it is. And Mishipeshu, a 100% the description of the Crosswick serpent. And no one ever put those two together.
And then, you mix that with Alligator Mound, which is a mound in Ohio. Why would you name a mound after alligators in Ohio? And then, we realize, oh, that's just again, racism playing into the cards because it was originally something else. It was probably a Mishipeshu mound, and we just called it the Alligator Mound because the natives would say, "Oh, it's this great creature that lives in the water and it's got a tail that makes whirlpools, and it's got scales on its back." And we go, "Oh, panthers don't live underwater. It's got to be an alligator. You're calling it wrong. That's what we call it. Oh, okay."
And so, the natives go, "All right, well then your word is alligator. Ours is Mishipeshu." And so, then later on, when they are all driven away or dead, and the next group moves into the area, the local settlers go, "Oh, the people lived here they said that was Alligator Mound. They insisted on it." And it's like, no, it was Mishipeshu.
But the fact that the Crosswick serpent, all that is all in the same area within a hundred years of each other and a couple of hundred years, it's like, okay, there's something there. What is that? And so, is it gone? Probably. Did it chase down into the mammoth cave system down there is so deep, we don't know how deep it goes. There could be stuff down there. We'll never know. And that's what scares me more than anything is going down there and just being lost in that under dark for forever.
Mason Amadeus:
God knows how long.
Perry Carpenter:
Right. Yeah.
Mason Amadeus:
Sorry, my cat keeps trying to knock over my trash can.
Mark Muncy:
Oh, good for him.
Mason Amadeus:
Yeah, I'm going to close the door because now they both just walked out of the room. So, just give me one second.
Mark Muncy:
Yeah.
Mason Amadeus:
Little demons.
Perry Carpenter:
This is fascinating stuff.
Mason Amadeus:
Yeah, absolutely.
Mark Muncy:
I've written a few books about this stuff.
Perry Carpenter:
I know right. After the break, the conclusion of our interview with Mark Muncy. Welcome back. So, I don't know if this is question worthy for an interview, but I am curious because you've used the word we a few times when you saying we're doing research on this, who is the we?
Mark Muncy:
The we is my lovely wife, Kari Schultz. She started as a good friend, and she was my illustrator.
Perry Carpenter:
Wow.
Mark Muncy:
And she's the talent. I just do the words because these monsters, they don't pose for anything but blurry photos because they're all such divas. So, she has to bring them to life. And she is like the forensic sketch artist for Cryptids and ghosts. People come up to her, and we'll go back to the original descriptions, the original sightings instead of the modern interpretations that have been telephone tagged.
But then, we'll also try to get an actual firsthand witness and talk to them. And that's how we recreate these things. And that's why, she sells tons of art on this stuff, not just in the books, but when we're at conventions. We were at the Mothman Festival this year. She sold so many prints because people love her Flatwoods monster because it doesn't have arms, because the original sighting doesn't describe any arms.
But when they go on New York television a couple days later, the original witnesses, they had a sketch artist draw it, and he drew it with arms. And because it looks scarier. And now, every drawing of the Flatwoods monster has these crazy arms. And, of course, that's not anything at all like the original, or Mothman is another one where the original sighting is this muscle-bound flying sasquatch, and it's ripping its wing that's caught in barbed wire.
People don't talk about that. And it's using muscular arms and muscular hands to do it. Most drawings, the Mothman don't give it arms. It's just the wings. And, of course, everybody jokes about the statue because it's got the eight-pack, and the very toned butt. So, there's the cult of the Shiny Hiney in Point Pleasant West Virginia. But you love that. That actually is the physique is close. It's the mothy stuff because the guy, the artist who made that based it on a Frazetta drawing of an alien.
But you go back to those original drawings and it's like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, he's definitely this muscular thing." So, that's my partner in crime. Now, she is ghost kryptonite though, so whenever we go anywhere, if it's haunted and she's in the room, nothing will happen. Absolutely, nothing. But she purposely stays outside sometimes.
We recently went to the May-Stringer House up in Brooksville. If you haven't been there, it's one of the most haunted locations in the world. And it's just north of Tampa Bay. And there are several ghosts known throughout there. And paranormal teams book it years out to do investigations in this place because they get so much evidence there.
And when we were there, we brought some YouTubers there that they were doing a haunted house in the haunted house for Halloween, and they were giving us a sneak preview.
Perry Carpenter:
Nice.
Mark Muncy:
So, I brought some YouTubers there, and was giving them a tour of the house. We did the haunted house, and then all the actors left. And I was like, since I am friends with them, they let me lead them around a little bit more, so we could get some actual history. And we went up to the attic where there is this famous ghost up there called Mr. Nasty. Psychics, have either called him Gus or Gary. We know it's a G word. Definitely, a G word.
But anyway, we were up there. And an event, when we had done our earlier tour, a doll had fallen over. And so, we were just looking at that, and we were talking about it, and the attic door just blows open right behind me while they're filming. And there is, none of the windows are open in that house. It's all sealed. There's no air conditioner in that house. The door was shut tight. And that video is just amazing. And if you catch it, you look at my face, it's just, "Ahh, what just happened?" And even I was taken aback by it, and I was like... We literally got showed the door by a ghost.
Perry Carpenter:
Wow.
Mark Muncy:
And so with that, the two YouTubers, were like, "Yup, time to go. Time to go."
Mason Amadeus:
We're done. I mean, what do you expect from Mr. Nasty, right?
Mark Muncy:
Exactly.
Perry Carpenter:
Yeah.
Mark Muncy:
He's a jerk. I don't think he's a demon or anything. I think he was a jerk in life. He's a jerk in the afterlife. Get out.
Mason Amadeus:
He's probably sick of tourists.
Mark Muncy:
Exactly. And he's like, "It's midnight. Get the hell out of here." So...
Perry Carpenter:
Get off my lawn.
Mason Amadeus:
What channel? How do I find the video? Who are the YouTubers? If you can say.
Mark Muncy:
The YouTubers were Tampa Jay and Cris The Girl. They do travel vlogs. And I think, we had another one with us, Aimless Adventures was with us too. But he didn't catch it on film, but those two did. And...
Perry Carpenter:
Wow.
Mark Muncy:
They do travel vlogs. They go to a lot of conventions and stuff like that, but they also do... I've been taking, I took them to Cassadaga. We went to the devil's chair. And so, I've been helping them do some legend tripping. They've become good friends. So...
Perry Carpenter:
That is so cool.
Mason Amadeus:
That's super. I just popped it open in a tab. I want to check that out.
Mark Muncy:
Oh, yeah.
Mason Amadeus:
It sounds like a lot of stuff.
Mark Muncy:
If you look up Tampa Jay, May-Stringer, M-A-Y Stringer, you'll see it. So...
Mason Amadeus:
And I found the Cris The Girl Channel and the Tampa J one, two separate.
Mark Muncy:
Yup.
Mason Amadeus:
So, they all filmed separately and Aimless Adventures.
Mark Muncy:
They were separate. And now, they're dating and they moved in together. So, now it's become a thing. But they get two different versions of everything. So, it's very cool. So...
Mason Amadeus:
Yeah.
Perry Carpenter:
It seems like if you want to get in a relationship, you do legend tripping or paranormal research or a legend or folklore research together, right? Is that the thing?
Mark Muncy:
Yeah. Oh, it's the thunder just confirmed that there. So...
Mason Amadeus:
Yeah, right.
Perry Carpenter:
That's what it is, yeah.
Mason Amadeus:
That's a heck of a report.
Perry Carpenter:
So, we've got nine minutes left. Mason, do you have a question? And then, I've got two.
Mason Amadeus:
I wonder if wonder we have one of the same ones, because it's a question that you've been asking that I really want to know from Mark, but I also don't know because you've shared so many. Do you have a favorite local legend?
Perry Carpenter:
That was the question. And then, there's an alternate if you want to go this route. A favorite legend, a question you wish that we had asked that we hadn't thought of yet. And then, I want to ask a follow-up question after.
Mark Muncy:
Okay. My favorite legend, I love my Bench-Leg because he is family. And I love that we discovered so much about mini lightning and Mini Lights and all that. But I got to say, my favorite is there's a ghost of a place in Clearwater that the place is no longer there. And it was this, it was called Boatyard Village, and it was built to look like a turn of the Century Fishing village, but it was built in the 1970s, over swamp. And it's now, and it had cool restaurants, some other things like that. But it was never a big, it didn't pop. It was just one of those, it just...
Perry Carpenter:
Yeah.
Mark Muncy:
But they had a theater there, and they would do dinner theater shows, and it was where old TV stars went to die. They would do dinner theater shows there, retiring to Florida. And yeah, and famously, there was a ghost in this theater, and it was this Victorian lady in white classic theater ghost with a parasol. And she would walk across the stage at random times.
Now, probably, the most famous time was Bill Daley, the guy who played Major Healy on I Dream of Jeannie, and an old Bob Newhart show character actor. He was there doing some show, and she walks across the stage during a matinee, and he's like, "Lady, this is Guys and Dolls, what the heck are you doing in that outfit?" And then, she vanishes before his eyes. And he's like, "Well, I can't top that. Ladies and gentlemen, we're out."
And so, that's when it got into the paper and people started talking about it. And then, another show, she came out on stage and vanished in front of the entire audience. So, it was big to do. The theater starts closing. Nobody's talking about the ghost much anymore. They tried running a haunted house there. Dr. Paul Bearer, our local horror host, he hosted one there. And they joked about the ghost being the extra that they didn't have to pay and all that.
But eventually, Boardwalk it burned down a lot of it, and they wound up having to just destroy it. And now, it's part of the land, the Coast Guard and the St. Pete Clearwater airport bought it, and it's just swamp land now. The nature has reclaimed it all. They bulldozed it and there's nothing left of it. And we thought that would be the end of our ghost. But people kayaking in the area or out boating in the area, suddenly see this lady in white walking among the mangroves in the swamp...
Mason Amadeus:
Interesting.
Mark Muncy:
... and with a parasol. And they don't know the story, and they start reporting it. And I started getting emails about it, and it's like, "What? She's still there?" But there's no reason for her. The theater never did a Victorian show. There was never any, it was swamped before. It's swamped now. Where did she come from? What was she attached to? And why is she there?
Again, something we don't know. Something we hope in the future we do. But I love her because she's still there, even though the ghost, the place she haunts isn't, but she's still there.
Mason Amadeus:
Maybe she was originally haunting a swamp. So, maybe this is actually back to normal. And the stage was just happenstance.
Mark Muncy:
There could be a boat crash or something we don't know about. I'm hoping that I'm going to open up a book and there's going to be that newspaper article tucked in that I need. So...
Mason Amadeus:
You need a pamphlet for like, cruise through the mangroves.
Mark Muncy:
Yeah, yes. The question I wish you'd asked.
Perry Carpenter:
Yeah.
Mark Muncy:
That's a story I never heard that before. So, I like that. I've been on a lot of radio shows and never been asked that. I would say, the question I wish you'd asked would be, have you ever seen something that changed your mind?
Mason Amadeus:
Oh, that's a great question.
Perry Carpenter:
That's a great question.
Mason Amadeus:
Yeah, that's a great question. I'm very glad you asked, Mark.
Mark Muncy:
Yes, I'm glad I asked myself that. So, good question, Mark. Thanks, Mark. It's all good. I'll say, there was a thing that I was convinced was supernatural. And I'm like, "This is it. This is the holy grail. We have evidence. We have the thing." And it is literally a full body apparition in a picture in St. Augustine's Tolomato Cemetery of a ghostly bride.
And I was convinced, "Oh, my gosh, we got it." And it was, see-through, it's translucent. Everything you expect from a ghostly vision. And you could even see details of her under her clothing. That was like, "Okay, that's a little naughty." But that's even better because shows that this couldn't, a hoax wouldn't do this. And I took it to one of my great friends, Owl Goingback, he's a seminal medicine man, and also a Bram Stoker winning author. He writes for DC Comics, Marvel Comics. He's incredible.
Mason Amadeus:
How did you come across this photo? I don't think you said.
Mark Muncy:
Oh, we had taken it.
Mason Amadeus:
Oh, you had taken it.
Mark Muncy:
A couple of us. A couple of people took the photos and it came out on both of them. So, this was incredible. And so, Owl is looking at the picture and he starts laughing. And I'm like, "What?" And he's like, "I've seen her there." And his picture is completely different, and it's much more terrifying. And I'm like, "So, what do you think this is?" And he is like, "Oh, it's a reflection." And I'm like, "What?" And he's like, "We're going to St. Augustine in a couple of weeks. Meet me there." And so, we arranged to meet him.
We went out Tolomato. We looked at the exact same place, and we're taking the photo and I'm looking at it, and it's a reflection of the window of the building next to it, which is an Airbnb, or it was a bed and breakfast at that time.
Mason Amadeus:
Oh, no.
Mark Muncy:
And there's a little bit of a screen hanging up there in this tree branch to keep bugs out. And it was this reflection. And so, then I'm like, "Oh, no." And then, not a minute later, a lady opens the curtain to that bed and breakfast, and she's wearing a white veil. It's her honeymoon, and she's in lingerie and has no idea that we're standing there taking a picture.
Mason Amadeus:
Oh, no. So, there's just a happy honeymoon, Airbnb.
Mark Muncy:
And so, I apparently, got a photo of some lady on her wedding night. But Owl was able to reproduce the effect. And again, never would've known. And he was a genius and spotted it. So, but he had done the same thing...
Perry Carpenter:
Wow That's so cool.
Mark Muncy:
... going back, looking for the original ghost that he has a pretty convincing photo of that is not a reflection. But so, but that totally changed my mind on, oh, I was going to be millionaire famous and show this photo on all the ghost shows.
Mason Amadeus:
Right. Especially getting two of them, which makes sense because it was a reflection, but like, oh, holy smoke, holy Christmas like, what...
Mark Muncy:
Yeah, it was a perfect storm of craziness. So, yeah.
Mason Amadeus:
Yeah, that's a great story. There you go.
Perry Carpenter:
Last question then. I mean, you do a ton of work with this and all the writing and the touring that you do as you go support books or go to these conventions and helping other people and all that, that sounds like a full-time job. And people might assume that that is a full-time job, but you actually have another side of you that's working in corporate America for security vendor. How do you manage all of that?
Mark Muncy:
It is. It's working two full-time jobs. And thankfully, my kids are all grown and no longer in the house. So, you have a little more free time. But this is my passion. This has become my love. So, I read or write an hour every night, and then I answer... When I'm not working on the next project, I'm thinking two projects ahead. And then, we're also promoting constantly what we had just done.
So, and then, people who think, "Oh, you were on Travel Channel, you're on Discovery Channel, you must be..." I was like, The Curse of Robert the Doll documentary, I got $500 and a trip to Key West for two days in an Airbnb and free dinner. So, I can't argue that. But...
Perry Carpenter:
Right.
Mark Muncy:
... the ancient aliens thing, I didn't see a dime for that. I got paid to do an interview with a German show a couple years before for a couple of hundred bucks, and they used that footage on that because they sold it to that. So, that's the thing with documentaries and these reality TV shows, reality TV shows, they're nonfiction, so you don't get royalties. So, none of those guys are, the reruns are the only people making the money, is the companies that are running them. So...
Perry Carpenter:
Wow.
Mason Amadeus:
I actually didn't know that royalties didn't apply to works of nonfiction. Is that, that's a thing?
Mark Muncy:
Yup, that was the thing. So...
Mason Amadeus:
Holy smokes.
Mark Muncy:
Yup.
Perry Carpenter:
It's also, you're not considered an actor, so there's not like all the points that come on that.
Mark Muncy:
And for Robert, for Curse of Robert, I didn't act, I was just telling the stories I had heard and things like that. And they used a lot of my research for some of the stories that they reenacted. Now, the actors in that, the re-enactors, guess what? They still don't get royalties because it's the reenactment because things like that.
Perry Carpenter:
Really? So, reenact. Wow.
Mark Muncy:
So, that's how they get away with it. But that's the business of that. But yeah, no, you can make a little bit of money doing this. So, people are like, "Oh, you're in it for the money?" I'm in it to save the stories and to save the folklore. It's nice that I can pay to go to all these places by doing this. Every dime we make pretty much goes into the next trip and all that. So...
Mason Amadeus:
So, it's a lot of...
Perry Carpenter:
It makes total sense.
Mason Amadeus:
... your passion, fueling your passion.
Mark Muncy:
Yeah, it's nice when the conventions invite you, or now that the Discovery Channel thing hit, yes, I got to conventions out of state that I normally would've had to pay to be at and all that. So, hey, that's great. And that's what it really does. So...
Perry Carpenter:
That's cool.
Mark Muncy:
But you still got to have health insurance, and that's what the day jobs were.
Perry Carpenter:
That is super cool. I think that's a good place to end unless Mason, you have any last tidbits that you want to make sure we milk out?
Mason Amadeus:
No, I feel like we should do a whole mini, so that's just stories from Mark.
Mark Muncy:
I'm happy to jump back on anytime.

[Transition to end credits]
Perry Carpenter:
Thanks so much for listening. And thank you to Mark Muncy for spending time with us. Check out our show notes for more information about Mark and his work. We've got links to his books, his podcast, eerie travels and a lot more. If you have any questions, feedback, ideas for future episodes or really anything else, you can reach us at hello@8thlayermedia.com.
If you'd like information about sponsoring an episode, a few episodes or an entire season, hit us up.
Digital Folklore is created and produced by 8th Layer Media and is distributed by Realm. That's all for now.
Thanks for listening.
Click to download a fully formatted PDF version of this episode’s transcript.

Welcome to our 3nd installment of Digital Folklore Unplugged.

These unplugged episodes are all about stripping away the fancy production elements so that we can give you access to raw (or slightly edited) interviews with folklore experts.

On today’s episode, Perry & Mason sit down with Mark Muncy.

Mark is the author of Eerie Florida, Eerie Apalachia, Creepy Florida, and more. He also hosts a podcast called Eerie Travels. It’s a weekly show, where he and his co-host Erika Lance explore monsters, legends, history, and mysteries. Each episode, we invite you to explore destinations for your own Eerie Travels!

And – just a reminder – if you are one of our wonderful Patreon supporters, you get access to these interviews a few days early before their general release.

Ok, let’s get unplugged…

Guest: